Should we reintroduce wolves to the UK?

[bunn]

Just wondering what you thought.

Here are some people who like the idea: http://www.wolftrust.org.uk/whyreintroduce.html

and here's someone who's not keen: http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/wolf.help/the%20wolf%20in%20scotland.htm

Comments

[helflaed.livejournal.com]

Whilst in theory I would like to see them reinroduced, I have my doubts whether or not it would really work on a practical basis. My erasons for this range from the fact that even in the Scottis Highlands there are few places which are truly remote enough from human habitation, to the fact that in Britain we have a very low tolerance of dnager, and if wolves were to be reintroduced, all it would take would be a few scares before the tabloid press were campaigning to ahve these "terrifying and dangerous" animals removed.

Having said that I would be far more worried about any attempt to reintroduce wild boar as they are far more dangerous.

If money is going to be spent on reintroducing species, it would be better to attempt to reintroduce animals such as the beaver, which would have a greatly beneficial effect on the environment without the difficulties inherant in reintroducing such large animals.

Or alternatively sending you some of our red kites..... they are doing really rather well up here!

[(Anonymous)]

YES YES YES! Wolves, wild boar, beaver -- bring them all in! I would love that. They have bears in the US and, while people have to be aware of some safety points, it doesn't seem to be a major problem. Admittedly they are a less risk-averse society than us (seriously - they are!), but it would do us tons of good to get a bit more backbone. I WANT WOLVES!
Neuromancer (evidently feeling very enthusiastic tonight -- I just had a caffeinated cuppa for the first time in ages, I think that must be it).

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

Ooh... I don't know. They both make fairly compelling cases. I think the pro case feels sounder, though, since the anti one gets rather emotive, and so I instinctively distrust it. I also feel that the anti one contradicts itself.

I will therefore vote based on purely irrational reasons:

1. If we reintroduce wolves, someone will have the job title "Head Wolf Manager", and that is a good thing.

2. Authors of post-apocalyptic fiction set in modern day Britain will now be able to have packs of wild wolves appear in their stories, and all post-apocalyptic fiction needs wild wolves.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

We've got wild boars, thanks to some helpful animal rights people, who felt that they were better roaming the moors than living on small free range farms.

They have had the hunt out after them loads of times and still haven't found them all. Apparently some of 'em tried to eat someone's dachshund earlier this month. The 80 year old owner beat the boars off with her walking stick, which I thought was wonderfully Lobelia-ish.

One has to wonder about the priorities of AR activists.

The fact that nobody can find the boar makes me wonder about the argument that the UK is too small and crowded for large dangerous animals, which does on the face of it seem fairly convincing. I wonder if we put them back, how easy it would be to eliminate them again?

[philmophlegm.livejournal.com]

"someone will have the job title "Head Wolf Manager", and that is a good thing."

Or alternatively...

"That's why they call him...
...the Leader of the Pack"


Incidentally, I'm with Neuromancer on this one. There'll be sheep attacks, but being as sheep farmers survive on handouts from the taxpayer anyway, it shouldn't be too difficult to compensate them. I take the point on tabloid hysteria (does 'Deed not breed' apply to wolves too?), but wolf attacks on humans would be very, very rare. (And in any case, it's about time we had some new fairy tales.)

[bunn.livejournal.com]

Three points I've seen raised on this

- if the sheep farmers shoot the wolves and bury them secretly, would anyone know? I know the farmers would get compensation for any sheep lost, but given what farmers can be like, I can see some of them going for the 'blast now and hide the evidence' option.

- would people steal the wolves and use them for breeding wolf-dogs or for fighting (apparently badger-baiting still happens..?)

- theoretical possibility of the odd litter of wolf-dogs turning up accidentally.

Not sure if any of those are actually arguments against reintroduction, but interesting thoughts, I felt.

[helflaed.livejournal.com]

"Lobelia" is lucky that she wasn't seriously injured. I've heard the other half and a Polish friend of our swapping notes about dangerous wildlife a few times. They both agree that wolves are not likely to bother anyone, but have a healthy fear of boar- especially the ones with young. (They both grew up in forested areas in Central Europe and have relatives who work/have worked in forestry)

I do not have a very high opinion of AR activists. Whilst I do support the right of those concerned with animal welfare to campaign and protest (although not to protest in a way which blockades the lab entrances or is intended to be threatening) I do not support the right of random people to enter labs or farms and do damage or release animals. The mink are a case in point. There were two releases from fur farms, the second occurring after the effects of mink on native wildlife were known. I sometimes wonder how much they care about animals or whether it is just an excuse for criminal activity.

As for the wolves- I'm still undecided. As there are other species whose reintroduction is well overdue (eg beaver) I think they should be reintroduced first whilst more research is done into the effects of reintroducing larger species.

As for red deer overpopulation, I have only one thing to say.

Venison.

[helflaed.livejournal.com]

Oh yes- if wolves were reintroduced, we could leave the children in the woods to be eaten by them..........

Maybe not. They might give the wolves indigestion.

[chainmailmaiden]

I'd like to see wolves reintroduced along with all the other animals mentioned by people in this post, it's a shame they died out in this country. Having said that, I can't help thinking that concentrating on making sure that other animals that are declining in numbers, such as hedgehogs, field mice and voles don't die out first would be a better plan.

[kargicq.livejournal.com]

Re 1 -- I think we'd have to convince the farmers that they were going to make more money out of wolves than out of sheep. Since the only money they make out of sheep is what we the taxpayer give them, this seems fairly easy to arrange.

I went to an excellent presentation by the project manager of the Northern Kites reintroduction programme recently -- which as Helflaed mentioned, has been a barnstorming success. They took completely the opposite approach from the other red kite reintroductions. The others introduced the birds into remote, rural areas, kept the nest locations top-secret in case of persecution etc -- red kites died out partly because they were poisoned and shot by gamekeepers, in the mistaken belief that they were in competition.

The Northern project introduced the birds 6 miles from the centre of Newcastle. When the first nest was discovered, they advertised it widely and set up a special viewing point, laid on buses etc, and within 8 weeks 11,000 people had seen the chicks. Everyone thought they were mad, but the birds have been taken to the heart of the local community and there was outrage when one was found poisoned. It's been one of the most successful of the reintroductions.

I think a similar approach should be taken with wolves -- well, not the "6 miles from city centre" bit, but the "totally engaging with and winning over the local community" bit. Wolf cubs adopted by local schools, etc.

Re 2 stealing wolves -- yes, I guess they *might*, but it strikes me as quite a tall order to steal a live wolf from the Scottish Highlands. Much easier to buy a pitbull, surely.

3 Wolf-dogs -- there's a thought! I've never heard of it happening back when there still were wild wolves, but I guess it could happen....

Neuromancer

[bunn.livejournal.com]

There are certainly plenty of dogs that are supposed to be wolf-dogs in the USA and Canada, and most people I've come across who have encountered them think they are bloody dangerous pets (neither one thing nor 'tother)

There was a UK government study in the 1990s that concluded that although there were a number of dogs described by their owners as 'wolf-dogs' in this country, there were only a handful that were probably genuinely of recent wolf descent, and those were living appropriately licenced as dangerous animals in wolf sanctuary type places.

I wouldnt' care to steal a wolf. Mind you, I wouldn't care to try to steal a badger either: those things are MEAN!

[bunn.livejournal.com]

... I forgot to say: do you think they would stay in the Highlands? It would make sense for them to do so and would be more convenient - but wolves do travel long distances, and there are quite a lot of habitats that might attract them that are not necessarily traditional wolf habitat...

[kargicq.livejournal.com]

Mm yeah, they might end up down here for a start, or round your place. I don't really see a problem -- I think they would always stay somewhere fairly remote and hide away, like the wild boar / wallabies / giant pumas etc. I mean obviously I'm no wolf expert, but a lot of expert-type people seem to think reintroduction would not cause a problem, so I wouldn't have supposed that 10 years after reintroduction the UK population would be terrorised by packs of rampaging canes lupi. And anyway, if we were, we could always remove them, right? We exterminated the beasties in the ?C16 armed with ?traps and ?muskets, so how hard can it be?!!! Bring back wolves (and beavers etc) and let's see how it goes!

Neuromancer

[bunn.livejournal.com]

If I remember correctly in most of Britain it's a lot earlier than that: the population that made it to the 1500's must have been pretty small. I suspect that people were a lot tougher back then. They managed to make wild boar extinct! How hard (and hungry) would you have to be, to take on a wild boar with some dogs and a pointy stick? How much easier to order a pizza and get a bloke in to improve your Wolf Fencing (tm!)

No, I don't suppose there would be much direct risk, particularly in the short term. In the longer term it would be interesting if wolves continued to evolve closer to people.

If some of the stuff I've read is correct, wolves sort of continually evolve into dogs in the presence of rubbish. Timid wolves stay in the forest and eat deer, and remain wolves. Bolder wolves take advantage of the opportunities provided by civilisation, interbreed with, and eventually become, dogs. But on the whole, places where there are still wolves nowadays are places where there is a great deal of space between the rubbish: if you innoculate a quite crowded small island with an injection of wolves, would they stay wolves* ?

It would be fascinating to find out, certainly.

* which brings up the whole urban / rural fox thing. When urban and rural foxes behave so very differently and cannot survive in each other's territories - will they eventually become separate species?

[bunn.livejournal.com]

(Shuffles feet in embarrassment at mention of voles and doesn't look at Kjetil...)

[the-marquis.livejournal.com]

Actually there are wild boar in Sussex & Kent that escaped from small farms, the weather sometimes has the same effect as the AR loons (many of whom are/have views so scary that I tend to consider them fascists), some escaped as long ago as '87.

[the-marquis.livejournal.com]

You're forgetting that the animal rights lobby would be up in arms about such a cull not to mention the AR loons who would have a whole new list of people to target ..

[wellinghall.livejournal.com]

Having seen what released mink have done to wild / naturalised populations of other animals, I'm against it.

[(Anonymous)]

Sigh, you're right, sadly. The whole wolf thing would only work if it was OK to hunt them, far as I can see. I was thinking of hunting licences as being an additional source of income too. - N

[(Anonymous)]

That is an excellent point you raise! Admittedly wolves only got domesticated into dogs once or twice (I think they estimate) throughout human history, but it might be more likely in a small crowded island. Mmmm.... I wouldn't be so keen if my packs of wolves roaming the wild places turned into packs of feral dogs roaming the suburbs! Especially if, as the Marquis points out, we probably wouldn't be allowed to destroy them. On the other hand, I'm not really aware of urban foxes being a problem -- I imagine they must exist in many of the places I've lived, but I've hardly ever seen them. - Neuromancer

[helflaed.livejournal.com]

We see the kites a lot around here- mostly hanging around near Barlow (The Black HorsePub has become a very popular place to watch them)I quite often see three or four of them when I drive through on my way to Newcastle. I've even seen one flying down our back lane.

The children's school sponsored one and called her "Sparkle". Lots of projects, posters etc in the school, and when a red kite was found dead there was uproar around here.

[helflaed.livejournal.com]

Mumble mumble watervoles and Magnus, mumble mumble

BTW- as for killing boar with pointy sticks- the other half's Opa and a few other foresters once killed one with their axes. This was doubly dangerous as if they had been caught they would almost certainly have been shot for doing it. (Late on in WW2 in Germany)

He took his part home- and his daughters couldn't eat it. Literally couldn't, even though they were starving. He was livid.