The Normans

[bunn]

[Poll #1666256]The second one is checkboxes in case anyone feels strongly that the whole Northumbria/Mercia/Wessex/Anglia/Kent merger was a horrible mistake and wishes to argue for more than one king.

Comments

[king-pellinor.livejournal.com]

For "romantic" read "responsible for bringing in a few things of which I approve, like heraldry and big stone castles and chivalry and so on".

Although most of that would have filtered across to a Saxon England anyway, so the Normans are really just benefiting from being the early adopters rather than being terribly inventive in their own right.

William should never have been king. Apart from anything else, Hastings shouldn't have happened - he was stupid to try it, and he only won because he dared Harold to fight before he was ready.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

I quite like looking at big stone castles but always feel that they must have been so phenomenally uncomfortable to live in that they seem like quite a step backwards in terms of civilised living...

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I've only just read this, but see that I've already voted. Hmm...

I don't have strong views about Normans at this time, since I consider the Normans in Italy far more interesting. Robert Guiscard and his offspring fall very much to Repulsive Yet Romantic category.

[parrot-knight.livejournal.com]

I'm mildly fascinated by the patchwork of Hellenic/Lombard principalities they overthrew...

Me too!

[bunn.livejournal.com]

Though I don't think I've read anything about them for yeeeeears.

[parrot-knight.livejournal.com]

Any other plausible English candidates, I wonder? Edric Streona?

[bunn.livejournal.com]

I think he's too early - isn't he a contemporary of Edmund Ironside? Wild Edric might be a contender for Mercia, he'd be around the right period I think.

[parrot-knight.livejournal.com]

You are right - Wild Edric was the chap of whom I was thinking, and checking ODNB he doesn't seem to emerge until 1067; the events of 1066 knocked out the Godwin connection so there was something of a power vacuum.

Mercia lives!

[bunn.livejournal.com]

If you feel like pushing for Mercian independence, I reckon you have to expect your candidate to be a bit obscure until the dreadful upstarts of Wessex are cleared away.

Re: Mercia lives!

[parrot-knight.livejournal.com]

In a partition I'd allocate Edgar Atheling Kent, just to underline where the so-called Cerdicings really came from...

Wellinghall! Elucidate!

[bunn.livejournal.com]

You can't just vote for 'Harald Hardrada, Harold Godwinsson, Edgar the atheling' and not even leave a comment! I now need to know if you meant:

1) 'Anyone but William' or
2) some sort of English Triumvirate or
3) Danelaw to Harald and then, what, Harold gets Mercia (or Kent??) and Edgar gets (the rest of) Wessex?

[lil-shepherd.livejournal.com]

Probably.

I don't see that Harold Godwinson had any claim on the throne at all. If, on the other hand, it was who was toughest, then you have to go with who won.

[philmophlegm.livejournal.com]

Depending on whose side of the story you believe:

Edward named William his successor.
Harold promised to support William's claim.
The Pope supported William's claim.
William defeated the only other serious claimant in battle.

What more does he have to do?

[kargicq.livejournal.com]

Absolutely! And I answer as a loyal subject of the current Duke of Normandy.

[king-pellinor.livejournal.com]

Or:

William claimed to have been nominated by Edward, who was dead and so couldn't deny it
William claimed to have Harold's support, but he was the enemy and you can say what you like to denigrate enemies
William got the Pope to support the nearest claimant (and the only one he'd heard of)
William defeated the other claimant only after, by happy accident, he'd been seriously weakened by other attacks

Good PR spin, coupled with luck :-)

[bunn.livejournal.com]

Ah, excellent, saves me typing out the response I have already made to PP several times on this divisive issue... :-D

One further thing I would add to "What more does he have to do?"

would be something along the lines of 'Not reduce the place to cinders in his wake to the point where it took generations for the economy and population to recover'....

I must get a history icon of some sort, Smaug doesn't really cut it and nor do the Bungles.

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

I had to vote for William on the simple grounds that he won!

Populist!

[bunn.livejournal.com]

So did Stalin :-p