Libraries

[bunn]

 Caught a section on the radio earlier today about the library closure protests. They were saying: use them or lose them. 

This is a call to action that works well for, say, local pubs or milkmen.  I don't think it should necessarily apply to libraries though. I live in a rural area, and am currently,  relatively time-poor and shelf-rich.  It makes sense for me to buy books rather than driving to a library during opening hours.   I am not a customer that particularly needs a library at present: in fact, using one would be something of a pain. 

However, I have certainly been shelf-poor and time-rich (or more conveniently located) in the past, and very likely will be again in future.  The fact that I am not using the library much *now* should not be interpreted as a vote to close the place!  

 I'm not using the local primary school, police station, hospital or prison either, but nobody thinks that means I never will.   Surely public services should be used primarily by those that need them, not by those that merely think that they should remain open...?

Comments

[bunn.livejournal.com]

I'm not convinced. I would happily pay a levy to support my local library, even though at the moment, I don't want to actually borrow books from it. I'm prepared to pay to keep it open because I think I might want it in future, and because I think there are collateral benefits to my general area, similar to a police station. Ideally, all areas would have a police station that would keep crime down by simply being there. Remove the police station on the grounds that there is no crime, and bingo, crime...

Seems to me library is similar. Remove library, even fairly quiet one, and the effects will be hard to monitor accurately as they are likely to spread over 10-20 years and be difficult to clearly separate from general cultural change during that period. It's hard to take an entirely evidence-based approach to something with so many changing factors.

If I did use library, I'm not paying a fee per book, so no more money goes into the system than if I didn't. So, by using the system, it seems to me I am tying up resources that might be used by others that actually need them?

Whereas, I buy milk from the milkman because it's a convenient way of obtaining milk, and the more milk I buy, the more money the milkman makes and it's no skin off anyone's nose except possibly Mr Tesco.

Re : cottage hospitals I have a suspicion that some of those cases the numbers don't necessarily tie up, because some of the people that would be prepared to go into a local hospital to die never make it to the big regional one. If I thought I was on my last legs, no way would I trek to a monstrous city to die among strangers, surrounded by things that go *ping*. Qualitative factors are hard to assess. :-/

[kargicq.livejournal.com]

AIUI the sort of people that urge you to use local shops instead of Tesco essentially are urging you to make a donation to what they regard as a good cause. I agree with you actually: I would happily make a donation to my local library even though I rarely use it. Maybe that's what people should be doing instead of organising these borrow-all-the-books events.

Re cottage hospitals: AIUI these studies are meant to be comparing like with like, e.g. they compare how well people do after hip replacement in the local hospital (with the general orthopod) vs in the city hospital (which is so big it has a dedicated hip replacement surgeon), etc. I gather the evidence on outcomes is pretty conclusive - although I take your point that you might be prepared to accept a worse outcome in a nicer place.

-N/

[bunn.livejournal.com]

Yes, I do understand that the studies compare like with like but - well I dunno, but when people are dying it always seems like many things are awfully *messy* to be expressed in statistics...

So many poor people kept going in conditions where if you treated your dog that way, it would very likely be an RSPCA case that you kept the poor beast lingering in such a state rather than let him go with love :-( My friend's mother is going through that just now, and it's just awful. Length of life is such a crap metric sometimes...

I like local shops and given free choice and time, would far rather shop in them than Tesco/Coop. Tesco in particular is utterly depressing, and for the stuff I buy, quality often very poor. Also, supermarkets have such sophisticated systems for persuading you to buy extra stuff that they often aren't as cheap as they should be. I am too suggestible... Much cheaper to go to a greengrocer where I can only impulse buy grapes or garlic! Not as quick, though.

[lanciatore.livejournal.com]

"AIUI the sort of people that urge you to use local shops instead of Tesco essentially are urging you to make a donation to what they regard as a good cause."

eh? What gave you that idea? The big arguments for supporting local independent shops is -

i) Producers can actually get a realistic price for their produce rather than being bullied by Mr Big Tesco/Asda etc into accepting a deal that is disadvantageous for them but which they can't afford to say no to.

ii) Low Food Miles. Most meat in the local butcher's around here comes from <10 miles radius. Check all the items on your next Tesco's shop and work out the food miles involved.

iii) Supports local economy. People who shop locally eat locally in the cafes and restaurants, buy services locally etc. It creates & sustains addditional economic oportunities rather than losing them to the out of town supermarket. If people can't get one staple item from local independent shops, they have to travel elsewhere for it and probably end up doing more and more of their shopping elsewhere, local traders suffer and you can get a domino effect. Bank branch and Post Office closures can have a similar "seeding" effect.

Food Miles

[bunn.livejournal.com]

LOL, so true, here's our local food miles tale :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1307305/Cornish-pastys-250-mile-journey-factory-Tesco-store-door.html

Re: Food Miles

[kargicq.livejournal.com]

I must admit that when I was in the US, I balked just a little at buying cheap fresh flowers (hardly a staple item needed to keep the nation going) flown from Ireland, but I think that says something about the taxation of aviation fuel as much as anything else.

[kargicq.livejournal.com]

Precisely the point that Neuromancer was making, I think -- they're a Good Cause for all these worthy reasons and should be supported for reasons other than the purely microeconomic benefit for the consumer. You could count anything above what you'd pay in a supermarket as a donation towards keeping Local Producers And Retailers in business.

Personally I far prefer Tesco. Quick, cheap, reasonable quality (and I never succumb to impulse buying). Also, closer to our house than any of the 'local' shops, which perhaps skews things for me!
Now, if they only had a bank and a post-office in the branch (they already rent space to a barber, a dry-cleaner, an optician and a foreign-exchange counter)... but that's just me!

[philmophlegm.livejournal.com]

The "microeconomic benefit" for the consumer would include the warm glow from having suported a "good cause".

[kargicq.livejournal.com]

Oh, absolutely; of course, if you think it's a good cause worth supporting, that's a reason for supporting it! I'm not saying that people shouldn't use small local shops, just that I don't and I don't feel guilty about that!

I never succumb to impulse buying

[bunn.livejournal.com]

That would put you very much in the minority. A supermarket is a very scientifically constructed system for encouraging impulse buying in human beings, and they make money because most people can be manipulated into buying more, when things are set up to look like a bargain.

I am not sure it is only 'Good Cause' to think about whether one might spend differently in a different type of shop: I've found that if I am shopping to feed 6 hungry people for a week, it will be a lot cheaper if I can get as much of it as possible from the butcher and greengrocer and stick to dishwasher tablets and looroll from the supermarket...

(Mind you, if it were more expensive I'd pay it anyway if I could, cos Tesco is such a grim place. No daylight and the staff look so *miserable*)

Horses for Courses

[kargicq.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't think I'm a typical consumer in many ways (for a start, my exposure to advertising is minimal) and I wouldn't want to generalise from my case. We have a dingy and depressing mid-size supermarket even closer to us than Tesco, and seldom shop there.

Personally I don't mind the lack of daylight, and the staff seem fine and are always helpful; possibly it helps that our Tesco is one of the biggest in the country, with its own deli, cheese counter, butcher, baker, and fishmonger with appropriately trained staff as well as all the prepackaged stuff. But whatever is best for your circumstances!

my exposure to advertising is minimal

[bunn.livejournal.com]

If you shop in a supermarket and use the internet and Google, your exposure to marketing is considerable. You may not see much television advertising - but marketing is an awful lot more than that!

You go to food shows! You may not think of that as 'advertising', but essentially a food show is one big mass of adverts which has the unusual advantage of being able to hit the punter using his tastebuds and nose as well as all the usual channels.

Re: my exposure to advertising is minimal

[(Anonymous)]

Point well made and well taken -- it's probably working subconsciously on me all the time, in that sneaky way it has. On the conscious level it all washes over me!

Re: my exposure to advertising is minimal

[kargicq.livejournal.com]

Point well made and well taken -- it's probably working subconsciously on me all the time, in that sneaky way it has. On the conscious level it all washes over me!

Re: I never succumb to impulse buying

[kargicq.livejournal.com]

"That would put you very much in the minority." But then Kargicq is very much in the minority in so many ways! :-)
Neuromancer
(*I* freely admit to impulse-buying; it makes shopping more enjoyable for me!)

[lanciatore.livejournal.com]

"I'm not convinced. I would happily pay a levy to support my local library"

which is essentially what the IoW council are asking some people to do (see Lady of Astolat's recent post) by saying the cost of some local libraries will have to be borne out of the parish precept rather than the council tax.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

Not quite the same thing, I think. Parishes don't map neatly to library coverage and the parish approach fragments things unnecessarily.

Things are silly enough here on the edge of Cornwall/Devon (because although the geographical area between Bodmin moor and Dartmoor would make far more sense in terms of population and transport, considered as a unit, because half of it is in Devon and half in Cornwall nothing is done in a joined up way. Take it down to the parishes, and I reckon it would get even messier...)

[bunn.livejournal.com]

... plus of course on Wight, there is the whole thing that some parishes get to keep their libraries, so those without them will have to pay more for less.