bunn

The trouble with vaccines is that they are illegal under EU law so there's no incentive for the drug companies to invest in refining them. Ironically more money has been spent on researching badger vaccines than cattle ones! The current cattle vaccine is 85% effective which is the same as the actual TB test and could be used immediately if the political will to go against the EU was there. Of course, the TB test wouldn't then work on those animals and the UK would lose its TB free status [ha ha!] but I can't see why the administering couldn't be done by vets who could sign certificates etc.

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That's a fascinating comment - thank you!!

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You're welcome. I'm sorry to go on so much but I've lost so many dearly loved cows to this problem that it's one I feel very strongly about.

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My heart really goes out to you.

I'm a vegetarian who has real problems with the industrialisation of animal husbandry, but... I'm a firm believer in the fact that the vast majority of farmers care passionately about their livestock and really want what's best for them. The TB business must be like a Sword of Damocles hanging over your head ALL the time.

You must often feel like you're swimming against the tide on all manner of things.

Oh, I'm also a passionate believer that Fairtrade should be practiced at home, too, with farmers getting a decent price for their goods from the supermarkets. So many people spend a fortune on new cars and endless electronic gadgets - and yet they're not prepared to pay fair prices for their foodstuffs. There's something not right there...

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I so agree with you on all points! Food is far too cheap and it's the animals and the environment that suffer. I'm actually a vegetarian too and have been since I was 4 years old and first realised what meat was! I became a farmer for the joy of rearing the animals rather than because I wanted to eat them. Producing naturally reared beef and lamb that people can eat with a clear conscience is a just a consequence of putting the same care into by cows and sheep as I do my dogs! And I'm by no means a rarity.

Fortunately, thanks to people like Adam Henson on Countryfile, more people do realise that the TB problem isn't just about financial losses. The worst thing for me is that I normally put all my old cows down peacefully at home but if they are TB reactors they have to go to an abattoir.

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To send your reactors off to an abbatoir must be so soul-destroying - I became a veggie when my horse was diagnosed with navicular disease. I found myself wondering why I was throwing money at one dumb herbivore, when so many other dumb herbivores were condemned to a miserable death.

I'm convinced that real animal lovers should be supporting the farmers that do things properly - but a lot of the time everything falls down at slaughter. My husband and I are seriously considering whether to buy a small amount of meat this year (we're thinking of supporting the Real Meat Co. via mail order) as a means of trying to help the industry, but I still have a major philosophical problem with meat eating (he'll be doing the cooking!!). I've been known to err on occasion, but I just don't enjoy the experience very much, which is an insult to the animal...

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I am troubled by the meat my animals eat, as well. I don't eat a lot of meat (or cheese) and what I do eat, I'm fairly confident comes from local farmers who are doing things carefully (not so sure about the milk :-/)

But feeding the dogs, and particularly the cats, on ethically sourced meat just seems to be almost impossible. I suppose myself that the meat in the foods I buy is probably *mostly* leftovers rather than the animals being killed specifically for that purpost, but even so, six cats eat a lot of catsmeat :-/

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Yes, I know how you feel. But I don't think it's fair to be an ethical fascist imposing their view on a species that's supposed to be a carnivore... I feel that way about children, too - I think they should be brought up to eat a balanced diet, and told the issues, so they can make up their minds themselves. Mind you, since I have no pets or children, I don't have this problem.

I do eat cheese, though. And milk. And both these items have huge collatoral damage, even without the rennet being taken into account. I tried going vegan once, and felt very ill.

I should probably eat British raised veal, since it's a natural by-product of the dairy industry...

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Been there and done that with navicular! Yes, some animals are definitely second class citizens. I feel the attitube of governments to any farm animal disease outbreak shows this. They wouldn't advocate mass slaughter of domestic pets as a control mechanism.

I have mixed feelings about meat eating. Thanks to my customers, I can afford to keep my sheep and cows; they and their descendants have a future, as does the permanent pasture on which they graze. But I hate that what happens on the final day of their lives is in the hands of others.

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I have mixed feelings, too. The problem is that without carnivores, a whole swathe of the countryside would be obselete. So would many breeds of domestic animals which are now an important part of our heritage.

I remember seeing footage of the Japanese tsunami featuring a farm in the radioactive zone - many cattle, trapped in their pens, had starved to death. One stubborn farmer was risking his life to stay and look after the abandoned animals, and was building up an entourage of lost pigs, dogs, etcetera, that had clearly sought him out. I think it illustrated the relationship between Humanity and Domesticates perfectly - the two are inextricably intertwined.

In that respect, I don't think it's right to be completely abandoning meat production and eating. But everything really falls down at slaughter - and I can see why that really cuts you up. You're reliant on semi-skilled labour paid piecemeal, as opposed to proper craftsmen, with the latter being what butchery should really be about...

This is turning into a really interesting debate - thanks!!

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It's actually very nice to chat to someone who has thought about this so much. Often I find vegetarians have never really got beyond the stage I was at when I made my choice aged four!

Disasters like the tsunami must take a terrible toll on the animals caught up in them but stories like that are so heartwarming.

Rather than hijacking Bunn's LJ, can I add you to my flist? My posts mostly tend to revolve around my animals!

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Please don't think of it as hijacking, I have been reading along, as this is very much Relevant To My Interests! (mind you, I shall go on earwigging if you take it elsewhere anyway :-p)

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Lol! So long as you don't mind! I ought to post more of this sort of thing really but animal issues tend to polarise people so I usually play fairly safe!

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Sure! I've added you, too!!

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Great! I look forward to hearing about your other interests too!

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Well, not just the slaughter - I think there is also quite an issue with raising of meat, particularly when imported. I understand that we have relatively strict regulations and generally pretty good welfare in the UK, but that doesn't help when people insist on eating meat regardless of what has been done to the animals that produce it, and therefore it gets imported as a cheapest-possible commodity. :-/

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What depresses me is that vegetarianisn - and the desire to eat organic, humanely farmed meat - seems to be a mere fad, and one of the first things to be sacrificed when money gets tight. When these same people are happy to keep buying their gadgets, new cars, etc.

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You've come across people who have stopped being veggie as an *economy measure* ? That's SO WEIRD. Surely vegetarianism is much cheaper? I've always tended to go veggie (during times I've done that) for reasons of economy as much as anything else!

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