Animal Grief

[bunn]

I just read Cat Confidential by Vicky Halls, a book about the behaviour of cats, kindly lent me by chainmailmaiden.

It had many interesting points to make, but my attention was caught by one line that was almost an afterthought, about cats that appear to grieve for companions that die:

"Whether it can truly be evidence of a grieving process as we understand it is debateable...are we merely seeing a withdrawal response to an addictive relationship that has suddenly ended?"

You get this kind of thing quite a lot in pet behaviour books. The writer is aware that they are dealing with a different species with very different behaviours and capacities, does not want to be accused of over-emotional response or projecting human behaviour on an animal, so from time to time during the book, they put on a sort of little virtual scientific tin hat and come out with this sort of thing.

I think it's a bit silly. Do we have some sort of British Standard Grief Unit? Is grief (or joy, or love) measurable in any meaningful sense in human beings? I don't think so.

People react to these emotions very differently, mean different things when they say those words.

Grief is an english language word: of course it's not going to mean exactly the same to me as it does to my non-English-speaking cat, but dressing it up as a 'withdrawal response' - how does that help?

Grief is the word we use to describe that sort of behaviour: it is not a precise word, and it's not suitable for detailed analysis. People grieve for objects, sometimes. If an old man grieves for his dead wife, having not having shown the poor woman any overt affection for the last 20 years, is that not "a withdrawal response to an addictive relationship that has suddenly ended"?

Talking about animals as if they were human beings in little fur suits is not a good idea. But talking about vague human concepts as if they had a precise definition and were consistent across all human cultures and individuals is equally silly, particularly when it's done in the interests of a sort of faux-impartiality.

Actually, while we are at it, almost all animal behaviour books I have read tend to assume that the animal has a 'state of nature', a 'natural' behaviour structure - while totally ignoring the fact that an animal's natural environment is shaped by other inhabitants of the ecosystem. Surely the ecological niche inhabited by the cat or dog is shaped by the fact that they live within a human culture?

Comments

[helflaed.livejournal.com]

If wandering around calling plaintively for her brother for months, going off her food and pining as she lost weight can be classed as grieving, then yes, Cobweb grieved for her brother Smudge.

Maybe the emotion is not quite the same for cats as it is for humans, and not all cats do grieve, but cats do seem to be able to experience emotions including grief.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

What I can't quite work out is why it is seen as more 'scientific' to say 'we don't know if this is grief, it may be a a withdrawal response' rather than 'This looks like human grief so we'll assume it probably is the same kind of thing until we have some proper evidence to the contrary'.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

People seem to go to extreme lengths to dismiss any sign of intelligence, emotion or thought in animals. If a person acted the way a "grieving" cat acted, then no-one would dream of saying it was "a withdrawal response." I have no way at all of getting into the head of a cat, because I can't speak its language. While I don't think my cat is sitting there composing poetry, pondering on the infinite, or musing over the emotional richness of its interior life, I'm not going to rule out the possibility. (Equally, I'm not ruling out the possibility that all that exists in their little minds is pudding.)

I'm reminded of the way early explorers and missionaries and the like were inclined to speak of the "primitive" tribes they encountered. Just because they didn't understand them, they dismissed their reactions as merely "animal" - not reflecting a proper intelligence, or properly realised emotions. History has proved them wrong.

I've noticed the "natural behaviour" thing, too. The books always seem to assume that cat (and dog) behaviour is governed by how their species is in the wild (pack social structures; hunting for easy prey etc.) and, after that, it's all instinct. But how many thousands of cat generations separate today's domestic cat from wild herds of lions? Far more than separate us from the apes.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

I'd love to read some sort of proper examination of the interaction of human and animal cultures. For example, if I kept our cats inside our house all the time I'm pretty sure they would develop all sorts of behavioural issues and would desperately try to get out of the house all the time. We'd have to keep all the doors and windows closed, and have some sort of airlock system.

But in the USA, that seems to be the recommended way to keep cats, and many people seem to be able to do it without the problems I've experienced on the occasions that I've had to keep our cats indoors for a bit. The USA also has a huge over-breeding of cats problem and a terrifying put to sleep rate.

So, are US cats being actively developed by culling, towards a cat form that will tolerate smaller spaces, and is less active? I wonder...

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I was horrified when I first found out that, in America, most cats never go outside. It seemed so cruel! But, as you say, the cats seem to cope. If they've never known any different...

My cats seem to have a horror of a closed door. If I shut a door, my cats start acting stressed. Within minutes, they've clawed the door open, or made such a noise that I've opened it myself. They then pop through it for half a second, just to prove that they can, and then return to their previous location and resume what they were doing (usually sleeping.) I don't know if this is curiosity, contrariness ("She's trying to stop me from doing it, so I want to do it"), or is a sign of some deep claustrophobia thing, and wanting to be free to roam the plains after zebra.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

The first cat philmophlegm & I owned together, Poggie, we adopted at 6 weeks old, and had been hand-reared. She had never been outside at all, and obviously we had to keep her in for quite a while before she was able to go out.

There was no doubt at all that she *wanted* to go out: she spent most of her time staring hungrily out through the windows, tried to burgle the window catches open, and seized every chance to try to slip out through any open door. It was a huge relief when her vaccinations were all done and we could finally let her out! So I'm not convinced about the 'if she's never known anything else' thing. I suspect that her energy levels were inherited.

[helflaed.livejournal.com]

I have kept mine indoors since one got run over and I found out that Magnus was crossing the main road several times a day. I decided that I couldn't deal with the stress of worring about him getting run over and decided to keep them in.

I know that he misses going out and that he would be happier if he were allowed to do so. I feel as though I'm being selfish in not letting him out.

I am also pretty sure that if I had continued to allow him out he would have been run over by now.

Mikka adjusted immediately, but he doesn't have as strong a hunting drive. He couldn't catch a cold..

Mechtilde has never been allowed out. We do have a litter tray problem with her. Mind you she also gets broody and starts yowling and carrying thins around as though they were kittens. Rolled up socks and cuddly toys I can understand, but a live mouse????? I wonder sometimes if they left something in when she was neutered.

I strongly suspect that indoor cats have more problems. Equally I can understand why in the States they are more concerned about allowing cats outside, especially are there are more species of animal which are willing to eat them, not to mention the way that Americans make their cats defenceless by amputating their toes. Thank goodness that is illegal here.

What I don't get is the unwillingness to neuter pets. I just don't understand why anyone would want an intact cat wandering around, calling, marking, trying to get out to mate etc.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

Vicky Halls, who is a UK cat behaviourist, seems to think that keeping cats indoors only is more likely to produce behavioural problems, presumably based on her own practice: most of the cats she talks about in the book are indoor-only.

What I've been vaguely wondering about though, is whether British cats (at least the general moggy population) are actually the same, on average, as US cats. Obviously, as your experience demonstrates, individuals vary a lot, but presumably there is a norm.

I have no evidence at all on this, but here's my woolly and unproven theory:

The British moggy population has been more or less isolated for over 100 years by quarantine regulations and being an island. So, this is a population of cats that has developed in in environment where the 2 major risks are being run over and not being able to find enough to eat. You might expect that to produce a population of particularly active cats that are good at hunting and foraging, as well as smarming up to people for food, and maybe even have some sort of learned car avoidance.

In fact, because we do have quite a strong neuter/spay culture here nowadays, in evolutionary terms, being good at hunting and foraging might even be 'better' than being good at being a pet and getting food from people, for a moggy, because owned moggies tend to end up neutered moggies and don't get to hand their genes and learned behaviours on.

Now, assuming that much of the USA is as hostile an environment to cats as I'm told, could it be that might actually favour the development of a different sort of cat, a more house-favouring sort of one?

Maybe a cat that isn't quite so much of a pain to live with during heat, that mostly prefers to stay inside the house, apart from one or two dashes out to have sex, would have a real advantage? That sort of cat would be better adapted to take full advantage of the niche offered by people and their houses and their tins of cat food.

Cats rearing kittens inside a house are presumably much more likely to raise a successful brood than ones doing it in a shed or something, if there are wolves or coyotes about. Cats that get their food from people would be at an advantage over hunters, if hunting is a more risky task in that environment...

I think a comparative study might be enlightening. Maybe whoever did it would want to also look at cats in a relatively backward rural African setting as well, or the big urban colonies you get somewhere like Istanbul...

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

This sounds like a follow-up project for the Watching the English writer: Watching the English Cat. I'd certainly read it. It had never remotely crossed my mind that national differences in personanility and behaviour might extend to pets. Now you've suggested it, I'm fascinated with the idea.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

I reckon there must be potential for an absolute shedload of similar cultural animal things. For example, I *think* all our herding dogs are true herders, not flock-guardians, because we have no wolves. Our dog-walking culture is different to countries where it is simply too hot to walk far during the day, or where there is thick snow on the ground for months, and I think that makes it easier for our herding dogs to be kept as pets.

I have also wondered if dogs and cats that come from places where the human diet is low in meat may have developed an improved ability to survive on a low-meat diet...

If I ever become an eccentric millionaire, I shall investigate these matters.

[helflaed.livejournal.com]

That study could be fascinating.

I think that indoors only cats do have more problems with behaviour, but I just daren't let mine out any more. I am fully aware that I am being selfish, but this was a decision I made for me, rather than my cats.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

We had a cat run over once, so I do understand where you are coming from on that, and sympathise. Everyone has to make their own decisions for their own situation.

Henning is allowed outdoors, but he still has a bunch of odd little issues that have to be managed, like comfort eating and bullying and scraping things obsessively with his paw, so I don't think it's a fix-all.

[helflaed.livejournal.com]

Magnus is a bit of a fruit cake too.

[tena524.livejournal.com]

I bumped into your journal through the Greyhounds list, and was fascinated by this set of posts. In addition to Casey, we have 7 cats, indoor only. I don't know how strongly recommended indoor living is in other parts of the US, but it has been brought up by every vet I've ever used here in the Northeast, discussed in terms of health risk factors. I've always been told that indoor cats live longer healthier lives. I've found that to be true.

I don't know how well your theory of inadvertent breeding for certain national characteristics works, as most of the house pets I know (including all of mine) have been neutered. It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how you could test it in practical terms.

As for keeping cats indoors, I currently live in a rural New Hampshire, home to a surprisingly large population of coyotes. When we first looked at this house, the prior residents told us they had moved in with 3 cats. Two years later, they had one. One went missing, but the other was clearly coyote prey (they found the remains in the woods nearby). The coyotes are our most common cat predators, but we have a few other native carnivores in the area as well.

As a child growning up in surburban New York, we always had cats. That area didn't have the predatory wildlife issue we have here in New Hampshire, but every pet we had was either hit by cars or came frighteningly close. Some survived their accidents, some didn't. However, the oldest cat we had died at eleven years old. The rest only lasted two to four years each, and we scraped the majority of them off the pavement in front of the house. Since I started keeping cats indoors, most have lived into their late teens, and succumbed to various geriatric complaints.

Later, I moved from New York to Boston, Massachusetts. When I adopted my first city cat, he stayed indoors because there wasn't any practical way to let him go in and out from my top floor apartment. Later on, I lived in another apartment that had a porch with nearby trees. Of the three cats I had there, only one ventured down a convenient trunk. Henry never quite figured out how to climb back up. After twice finding himself stuck in the courtyard with no exit(howling for rescue), he apparently decided it wasn't worth it and stopped climbing.

I've had a few former stray cats over the years, and lost one of them to feline leukemia, one of those health risk factors the vets mention. This was about a year before the vaccine came out. The other, Itzak, had a permanent limp from a badly healed fracture of the left hind foot. It's anyone's guess as to how he got it, or how on earth he survived the streets with it.

Yes, my indoor cats spend many an hour perched in windows. Yes, they hang out at the back door all the time (it's mostly window as well). However, when they've had the opportunity to go out, they generally haven't gone more than 10 or 15 feet from the door. I occasionally let them chase squirrels off the porch, but only two of the seven will go for it if I open the door.

I can't say I think all cats should be indoors, or all outdoors either. I think we each have to make the best choice we can, given our circumstances. I can tell you my cats seem happy indoors. They certainly seem to find ways to keep busy. A common saying around our house: "Anything not nailed down is a cat toy."

[bunn.livejournal.com]

That's really interesting (that your cats didn't want to go more than a short distance from the door - and also about the accidents and illnesses) and could be supporting evidence for my (admittedly rather wild) 'US cats have evolved a safety mechanism due to a different environment, and are better adapted to indoor-only lives' theory.

We have 6 cats here at the moment, and I too have had indoor-outdoor cats all my life (all moggies of British stock, until our recent acquisition of 2 Bengals). I've never had one that was so cautious about moving away from the house as the cats you describe (in fact, Kjetil often comes for walks with my hounds, and will go for a couple of miles quite cheerfully).

We have had no illnesses or injuries as a result of access to the outdoor, and only one death. All my family indoor-outdoor cats died of age-related conditions. My cats are enthusiastic climbers and I've never seen one get stuck anywhere. Keeping them in, when we need to do that, is a really difficult task.

I mean, yes, when the cat doors are open, they are often all inside sleeping on the sofa, but try and stop them going outside and it's like trying to catch soap in the bath: you think you've got them all inside and then somehow they slip out!

We have lost one cat to traffic (before we moved here), and I honestly think that was partly a behavioural/emotional issue that I should have spotted and dealt with. We had a cat that had been hand-reared and was an only cat. She had been indoor-outdoor since her vaccinations were completed. When she was 3, we got 2 more cats 'to be company' for her, and she was utterly horrified by the whole idea.

We thought she'd come round with time and didn't really realise how serious this was: instead, she was stressed, she went much further than usual, out of her normal range, and was hit by a car. We should have realised how traumatic this change was for her, and kept her in until we were confident she was OK with the other 2 cats, or until we'd established she could not live with them and returned the new pair. She felt her house wasn't a safe place for her any more and I'm pretty sure that was the point at which she got into trouble.

[tena524.livejournal.com]

I think the numbers lost to traffic depend in large part on the location. We lived way out on the edge of town where the speed limit was a theoretical 35 mph, but it wasn't unusual to see cars go by doing 60. Our house was in between two hills, so inevitably cars coming down hill were going much faster than they should have been.

Most of our neighbors had similar experiences with their household pets, unless they fenced in their yards, as our next door neighbor finally did. Some trained their dogs to stay within certain boundaries, but I can remember one young as-yet-untrained puppy was lost to a speeding motorist, right in front of its young owners.

Up here in New Hampshire, people often drive the back roads at much higher speeds than those posted as well. We live on a dead end, so we don't get much traffic out front, but the road behind us is a short cut for a lot of local traffic. I've seen a couple of former pets on the side of that road, and stopped for a few feline & canine wanderers as well. Scary.

[kargicq.livejournal.com]

"almost all animal behaviour books assume that the animal has a 'natural' behaviour structure"
"...that cat behaviour is governed by how their species is in the wild..."

Evolutionary psychologists do something rather similar with humans too -- arguing that much of our behaviour can be understood by our needs in a putative savannah-like Environment of Evolutionary Adaptedness. Has obvious problems but I find a lot of it rather convincing, I must say...

Neuromancer

[bunn.livejournal.com]

I think one could argue though that a primitive tribal humanity is still the same species as modern humanity? I'm less convinced that (say) a pekingese is the same species as even a modern primitive hunting dog such as a Pyranean Mountain dog, let alone a wolf.

I don't mind the idea being one element of the mix, but I do think it seems to be over-emphasized in animal behaviour books - presumably because there are far fewer of them than the huge range of disciplines examining human behaviour.