Merseyside dog amnesty

[bunn]

I have just looked at  this PDF leaflet issued by Merseyside police about their  illegal dog amnesty.   It makes me angry.

 In particular, the description of 'how to identify an illegal dog' combined with 'who will decide a dog is illegal' and the advice to report dogs belonging to one's friends family and neighbours makes me want to march up and down ranting loudly.   I would like some non-dog-owner people to tell me if they think I am overreacting.

Comments

[king-pellinor.livejournal.com]

Your dogs appear to be illegal, by that description. Do you wish to turn them in before I inform your local police station?

The only useful bit to me is "short-haired" - the rest could apply to anything.

I think the "who will decide if it is illegal" bit is misleading. It is consistent with "the courts will" (which I think is the legally correct position), but implies that the police specialists will decide and the court is only an appeal body (which may actually be the practical position).

I think overall the leaflet is unhelpful and could very well be counter-productive. The police may spend a lot of time looking at poodles.

I think you're over-reacting, by the way, but only in as much as I think any reaction to something which exceeds my own is an over-reaction (and, conversely, anyone who doesn't get as excited as I do about say morris or pretty armour is under-reacting). "Over-reacting" is not an objective thing :-)

[bunn.livejournal.com]

Your dogs appear to be illegal, by that description. Do you wish to turn them in before I inform your local police station?

OK, now my hair is REALLY standing on end...

Speaking of things you care about in particular, have you seen this?

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

There's something darkly surreal about the spotter's guide to an illegal dog - 45 cm high with a wedge shaped head, etc. If they did this with people, it would be racist. "How to recognise an illegal immigrant: dark swarthy complexion, mean slitty eyes, foreign jabberings. Please contact us if you see one. It's for their own good, because if you don't, we might have to shoot them."

I have very little faith in the intelligence of the general public. These are the people who, fuelled by tabloid over-reaction and ignorance, go round attacking paediatricians, thinking they're paedophiles. I can imagine them panicking, roughly measuring their neighbour's poodle, and denouncing it as illegal. It has shades of seventeenth century witch hunts.

The ferocious picture on the front doesn't really encourage a sober, measured response, either.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

I really liked Liverpool when I worked there, but its undeniably a place where there is a large group of people with relatively poor educations who are likely to panic easily.

I imagine that does attract the dog-fighting types, but I don't see that this sort of thing will help enough with that problem to make up for the enormous potential for misery to the ordinary people who happen to have dogs that are the wrong shape - let alone the dogs.

[helflaed.livejournal.com]

I can really see why you're angry about this. About the only good thing in it is that it gives phone numbers for Dogs' Trust, RSPCA and the Kennel Club.

The description is incredibly vague, and as for the part about it being in your friends'/family's best interests to report suspected illegal dogs- well that seems downright sinister.

I'm annoyed by this leaflet-and I'm afraid of dogs.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

There was a news story recently about a dog that was confiscated and put to sleep for being 'pit bull type'. The face of the little girl saying goodbye to her dog keeps coming back to me.

For the dogs it's sad enough, but how many people are going to be left alienated and believing that the police are the bad guys? How do you win someone's confidence back after the state took their dog?

[(Anonymous)]

Mmmm, well let me put the other point of view. I admit to being unsure whether this initiative will actually solve the problem of dangerous dogs, but I don't feel particularly angry about it. The "shop your neighbour" aspect of it doesn't bother me either -- if I thought someone I knew had a dangerous dog, I'd shop 'em too. How would I feel if I didn't and it mauled a child?

Obviously if as a result of this initiative the police now go around euthanising labradors left right and centre, I will feel differently.

I agree the description is vague but I don't think Bunn's dogs qualify -- they are surely taller than 55cm, and could not be described as "muscular".

Re LoA's point -- yes, this is "dog racism" if you like, but with some underlying justification. We're told that genetically, humans are all the same beneath the skin -- so you can't predict from someone's ethnic appearance what their character is like. But for dogs, because they have been genetically manipulated for so long, you really can -- a collie IS more likely to be interested in herding than a terrier, no matter how it's brought up. Or at least that's my understanding.

- Neuromancer

[helflaed.livejournal.com]

I don't have a problem with people reporting dogs which pose a threat to the public. Unfortunately this leaflet is more about trying to identify banned breeds under the Dangerous Dogs Act- a poorly drafted bit of knee-jerk legislation if ever I saw one.

Quite apart from any other considerations- how on earth do you actually identify the breeds concerned? The whole area is a minefield, and many people with perfectly friendly, well trained dogs which might fit the description are getting very scared about this.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

The thing is though, they are not being asked to shop people with *dangerous* dogs. They are being asked to shop people with dogs that are a (very vaguely specified) shape and size. Not at all the same thing, but I'm very interested that you fell for the idea that shape=aggression.

The Kennel club disagree with that: http://tinyurl.com/3bvbnp
So does the Association of Pet Dog trainers: http://tinyurl.com/2o7y6x

In fact, the leaflet says people cannot hand in a dog that isn't that shape and size, even if it *is* dangerous. So someone with a very badly socialised, aggressive, illtrained GSD or akita or wolfhound is fine because those are hairy dogs - but a staffy that happens to have unusually long legs is a menace to children? Staffys are often described as 'nanny dogs' because they are so good with kids!

Yes, a collie is more likely to herd than a terrier, but a collie (even a working collie) is a breed, not a 'type'. If you had a crossbreed that looked like a collie but happened to be mostly made up of, say, saluki, GSD and staffy, to name a bizarre mix that would likely have roughly the right size and coat type - it would be most unlikely to be good at herding.

I don't want to see more pit bulls being bred: pit bulls do have an inbred problem with dog aggression (though that is not at all the same thing as aggression to humans) and there are plenty more suitable breeds available as family pets, so why import a problem?

But encouraging people to report their neighbours for having (say) a lab x boxer, or a staffy lurcher? Those would fit, and can look quite 'pit-like', but unless the poor animal had been very badly raised and trained (any dog *can* be dangerous), the major risk would that it would drool on your jacket.

I *hope* that nobody would report a pure greyhound or a whippetx as a dangerous dog, and that the police would laugh at them if they did. However, whether my own dogs are directly affected or not, I think this is an appalling initiative.

One effect of this, I am told by people who are local, has been that there are people in the Merseyside area who have vaguely squarish looking dogs that are no longer being walked publicly, because they are afraid of being reported. That means that in people's houses there are very likely now a bunch of bored, frustrated dogs that are missing out on vital socialisation and exercise. Most of the dog attacks I can think of have been by poorly socialised dogs on children in their own homes.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

nobody would report a pure greyhound or a whippetx as a dangerous dog

Arg, I'm doing it now! I mean, as an 'illegal' dog. Greyhounds and whippets can be dangerous, as all dogs can, and I hope that if a sighthound was being kept in a way that made it a risk to the public it would be reported and dealt with appropriately.

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

The semantics of this debate are so loaded, aren't they? If you don't support the amnesty, you must support people owning dangerous dogs. I can see exactly why you're angry, and I'm angry too (though as a staffie cross owner, I'm not exactly an objective party). The part about being invited to shop your neighbours is particularly worrying, because most members of the public are not in the least bit qualified to identify a dog's breed by sight, and they've been told to look out for a dog which simply happens to look a certain way, never mind how it behaves. That link describes my dog, it describes all manner of crosses and other dogs that aren't Pit Bulls at all, and even if your neighbour's dog doesn't resemble that description, don't worry, because Pit Bulls can vary in size, weight and characteristics, so it still might be one anyway!

I could just rant about the idiocy all day, and the really sad thing is that nobody who knowingly illegally owns a pit bull, or who is involved in dog fighting, or other criminal activities is going to hand their dog over - the dogs that are going to be handed over will be the pets of frightened families.

[chainmailmaiden]

I don't think you're overreacting, I suspect there will be a lot of people with dogs that happen to look a bit like pit bulls that are going to suffer because of this.